Jim Byrne an Expert in Workplace Culture

Cindy Moehring: 00:00:00

Hi, everyone. I'm Cindy Moehring, the founder and Executive Chair of the business integrity Leadership Initiative at the Walton College of Business, and this is the business integrity school podcast. Here we talk about applying ethics, integrity and courageous leadership in business, and most importantly, in your life today. I've had nearly 30 years of real world experience as a senior executive. So if you're looking for practical tips from a business pro who's been there, then this is the podcast for you. Welcome. Let's get started. Hi, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the business integrity school. We are in season six and this season, we are talking all about culture, integrity and speaking up and how do you really build that kind of a speak up culture within a company? We are really fortunate to have with us today a very special guest, Jim Byrne. Hi, Jim. How are you? I am well. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. Jim is with Lockheed Martin. He is the vice president of ethics and business conduct there. He's responsible for overseeing the strategy, the operations of all of the domestic and international ethics and business conduct program across the entire enterprise. And you will have over like, 100,000 employees, don't you, Jim?

Jim Byrne: 00:01:17

Right about Yeah, 115 116,000. Correct.

Cindy Moehring: 00:01:21

Yeah, yeah. So that's a really, really big job really big. But Jim has been well prepared for that job, because he has a very decorated history. I mean, his bio is just amazing. Jim started as a Marine Corps officer. He's been a prosecutor for the Department of Justice. He's been a senior executive of Veterans Affairs, and now he's an officer at Lockheed Martin. So that's a really varied background and experience. And quite like I said, a decorated bio. Congratulations on that, first of all, but can you just share with our audience a little bit about how you kind of found your way from being a Marine Corps officer to now an officer at Lockheed Martin?

Jim Byrne: 00:02:07

Sure, sure. Thank you. And thanks again, for inviting me to speak to you today. I think I would summarize, in one sentence who and how my professional career has gone is that Jack of many trades and master of none. I have had a good number of really interesting experiences. And in those organizations that Cindy spoke about the Marine Corps Department of Justice, clerked for a federal judge, spent couple years in Iraq, worked for an oversight agency was the deputy secretary, Department of Veterans Affairs and, and then this is my second stint back at Lockheed Martin. So I won't bore you with the specifics, necessarily, but I will share with you that I do have friends that refer to me sometimes as Forrest Gump. And maybe a generational movie that maybe not everybody's seen. But I have had the opportunity to be at some pretty interesting places and meet some really interesting people that have enriched my life. But But kind of at my core, if you wanted to, like, well, who are you are today, I didn't have, I didn't necessarily have a plan. Like, I want to be the vice president of ethics visit comic and Lockheed Martin, which, by the way, is one of the best jobs one could ever have. But but really, as I as I got married, right after I graduated and got commissioned from the Naval Academy, been married for 35 plus years, I'm the father of six, my grandfather, and at the core of my, my being, that that's who I am, I am I am the provider and the father and the protector of the of that family. And I take that job incredibly serious. And so I say that, because that's sort of what it's part of my professional journey, I guess, is one, I always had to make sure I had a job, right? I couldn't do you got to bring in some, some money, right. And, and I feel pretty good about that, that even though we had a large number of kids, I provided all the things they needed, not always the things they wanted necessary. I got it. Right, but they needed. And then in addition to providing those things, public service is sort of in my my DNA. And, and you'll see that that, you know, I've been in and out of public service for the last 40 some odd plus years. And then to be quite candid with you. I want to do something exciting. Maybe less so now. But when I was a little bit younger and a lot younger, I was always looking for the next exciting thing. When I look back and I go down the list and like I was a bad boss there, that's why I left. There was a bad boss there. That's why I have too many, but but over a pivot point. I'm not working here anymore. And so that's a little bit of what led me back Lockheed Martin Corporation, I'm just thrilled that they let me come back, I spent nine years there, in ethics and compliance, I was the legal department and doing other things. And then a job opportunity presented itself as the vice president for ethics and business conduct. And I knew of the job Am I on it for a few years, and then it opened, really blessed to have been selected for it.

Cindy Moehring: 00:05:25

Well, how, how interesting that, you know, you called out the pivot points in your career, and you can tie that almost, you know, bad bosses, who sets culture where you can tie culture oftentimes to leaders, for better or for worse, and they really do kind of shape it. So as you think about that, and your varied experiences across different segments of society, not just in corporate America, you had bosses that set a tone, right? And, and define the culture in a certain way, or even a subculture right, within an organization for the group that you were a part of. But as you think about it, from the positive side, are there any sort of common strengths that you see that create strong cultures across those various segments of society beyond just being a good boss?

Jim Byrne: 00:06:20

No, that's a great question. And you are right about leaders setting the tone at the top right. But a common strength, the ones that and there's many, by the way, but there's are there's a few I'd maybe like to share with you is one is a shared purpose. Right? Yeah. strength this is what's your shared purpose? What are your core values? What are your beliefs? Yeah, keep Martin Corporation we have, you know, our, our core values are do what's right, respect others perform with excellence. And so those are examples of shared purpose. Another common strength that I would suggest is important is clear goals, like a vision, right? And then and then that cascades down into measurable objectives. Wherever you are in the organization. If you're at the top of the organization, it's very broad. If you're, you're down at a lower level, you have a specific objective, but you're still supporting the commander's intent. You're still supporting the vision of the organization, Bucky Martin's vision, or its be a global leader in supporting our customers missions, strengthening security and advancing scientific discovery. Right. That's a pretty high level, visionary statement. And I'll share two other ones that I bore you too much, but is trust is another credible credibly important common comments strength and, and it's trusting your leadership. It's trusting your fellow employees, your colleagues and your peers and trust in the institution that the right does the right thing. Right. Right. And that's part that's the culture that's directly tied into it. And then the one, there's another one so little one off, but I thought I'd share with you this transparency. And transparency is about fairness. Right? If you go, why does transparency matter? Well, one, it's about fairness. It's about trust. And I, you know, we are worthy of sharing what's what the vision, what's going on where the mistakes are, what we're doing to remedy things. And it's also part of the measurement of success, you know, creating sort of a meritocracy. I think all people sort of want that. Yeah,

Cindy Moehring: 00:08:23

yeah. I think that what you just hit on, oftentimes, some people don't give enough credit to how important those sort of anchors are, and how translatable they are from different segments of society, if you will, right. You've got to have the purpose, you've got to have the vision, you've got to have clear goals so that you can you can actually go accomplish the mission. And then you've got to be able to create trust and transparency, if there's anything and I think in modern society that has come to rise in terms of importance, it is that transparency, because so much information is just at our fingertips. Which actually leads me into my next question, do you think at all Jim with COVID, and kind of distributed work now that any of the common strengths have changed? Or do we need any to add any new ones to the list? We need to be thinking about it differently? Or what what do you think about that now?

Jim Byrne: 00:09:30

Yeah, so that's interesting, because that is something we do think about in my in my job and in our company. I don't know that we need to learn new strengths, maybe, because I think the strengths that I discussed and even some of the other ones are very fundamental to any good organization. And so I would suggest, and this is what I've been advocating is, is to continue to refine those strengths, double down on these common strengths. In our new normal, because I think it is important that we do that, to maintain that strong culture. But I might be wrong. And I'd be open to hear if there are new strengths or muscles we should be exercising or using. But right now, I think, double down on what you you have these basic principles that have gotten us to where we are today?

Cindy Moehring: 00:10:22

Yeah, you know, I think the question is, it's, it's maybe more about how do you some people I think, are stuck in the mindset of, to have a strong culture, you have to be able to be face to face, you know, to be able to show the culture and not just be able to talk about it, you have to be face to face. So the challenge may be not so much in redefining new strengths, but figuring out how to bring them to life, perhaps more, you know, when you do have a distributed workplace, and to really challenge our thinking about is that water cooler talk really what defined our culture? Or is it defined in such a way that we don't actually have to be face to face? You know? I don't know. I think that's an interesting one to think about. Um, let's see, let's flip the coin. What about challenges? What do you what do you see as some challenges to creating a strong culture? And Are there similarities across those various segments of society where you've worked when you think about challenges to that?

Jim Byrne: 00:11:26

Well, I, I've seen some of those challenges in different sectors, right, in the military government industry, and you identified one right out of the right out of the chute during this podcast, it is leadership from the top right, a certain particular tone that set in the top I think becomes incredibly challenging. Yeah, to do that. But I will suggest you that distributed workforce, you know, there's this concern, that it's created some challenges to the strength of CO strong cultures. But I gotta tell you, I think there's some benefits that people aren't necessarily thinking about to create a strong culture. And other than sort of the obvious, like, you know, most people will have no or less commutes. But the cost is nice, right? So that they should be, you know, a little boost a boost to people. And to them, they're not as frustrated when they come into work, knowing that they have to go into bad traffic on the way home. And then this other one, I think is interesting worth thinking about is sort of parody. There's it levels, the playing field a lot when everybody is a small block on on a screen because in the normal meeting room, you know, the meeting room dynamic makes the boss sits at the head of the table or at the best seat or what have you there's backbenchers, and there's not backbenchers, and all that. I think it creates a more inclusive environment. I do I do. And so there, so I've kind of throw those out as pluses. But But you're right, though we do have employees at Lockheed Martin, for example, who have never stepped foot in a brick and mortar facility. That's hard. That's, that's hard. I think they've done it. But they're still missing something. Is it critical? I don't, I don't know. I don't think so. But But what Lockheed Martin's done, to keep our culture strong during these last couple of years is we we sort of doubled down as I suggested on these common strengths. And one of the main things that I found that I tried to do is over communicate, like, everybody, I gonna say the message two or three times, they're really clear the vision where we're going, they're a valued member of our team. You know, this is what's coming down the pipeline, no surprises. Just because when your virtual the sometimes the message doesn't get to people as well as it does when you see it in the walk down the hallway. You see it on a sign, you hear it in the over the water cooler, you hear it in the lunch line? Just, you know, you walk down and go. Did you hear what Jim said today? It didn't make sense. If your virtual there is a little more effort required to get breifed by your office mate.

Cindy Moehring: 00:14:15

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's, that's yeah, that's, it's I think still being defined by by all of us, actually, right now, I mean, the future is not predefined. So overcoming challenges to strong cultures that are created by distributed work, Look, we all have a role in rolling up our sleeves and making sure that we overcome those challenges by like over communicating and doing those kinds of things. All right, so that brings me to my next question, which is about getting people to speak up and speak up cultures. There are a lot of ways tools that people can use, whether they're face to face or not to be comfortable speaking up and one of the those tools that we've been exploring this semester Is marriage until his approach to giving voice to values. And she's got, you know, kind of the seven different different principles or legs, if you will, for a framework, it helps you figure out, Okay, what's the easiest way for me to raise my voice on an issue that I am uncomfortable with for whatever reason, you know, and she recognizes that not everybody is wired the same way. Some people are extroverts. Some people are introverts. And there's not just one way to speak up, right, you can do it in a number of different ways. And so I like her tool, because it does help you sort of figure out, well, what works for me, right. And, and in theory, it sounds fabulous. But I think that theory married with practice is really where the rubber meets the road. And I know that Lockheed Martin is a company that has employed Mary's giving voice to values approach in your corporate training. So I'm really curious to hear you tell us just a little bit about the practice side of her giving voice to values theory, and how does that actually work inside the company,

Jim Byrne: 00:16:05

we do use some of a Mary Gentile methodology in our ethics awareness training, for example. And we have done so for about the last 10 years. Ethics awareness training is something that we're very proud of at Lockheed Martin Corporation, and every employee, from the most junior employee to the CEO, and including the Board of Directors takes out at least an hour, every year to sit down in a small group and go through some scenarios of ethical dilemmas and how to work through them. Ideally, it's a leader, a leader, leading their team, to the ethics awareness training, by circumstance that can't always necessarily happen in ad hoc teams put together or what have you. And that actually works out pretty awesome, too. But some of the techniques from her book giving voices values, they do show up in that in the ethics. Okay, and there's a there's a handful of like, ask questions, obtain data, talk to others, and reframe the issue, those are the those are some of the key techniques that we we encourage our employees to use, we use this framework in the in the ethics awareness training videos. So it kind of allows a dry run or a practice with put the put themselves in the shoes of the actor and think about how they might resolve or report an issue is taking theoretical, you know, theory and putting it into practical application before you have to actually

Cindy Moehring: 00:17:35

write Oh, I love that. So you will actually put it into your training, which explains the how, which is how Mary advances the approach gentle his approach, I think is from go moving from making employees aware of issues to having them think about how would they resolve them, and then you will sit down in small groups and actually talk about the how, and work through those dilemmas. That's really fascinating. Do you think that that has improved the SpeakUp? Culture lucky, Martin, since you've been doing it for about 10 years now?

Jim Byrne: 00:18:07

Yes, it has and ethics awareness training, the one where we use Mary's principles is just one component of a multifaceted, comprehensive program at Lockheed Martin. Or another way for them to visualize how to take action. And really, it's been very helpful bridging the gap between the two options that I think some people think that they have, report or not report it like, exactly. You can do in between, to maybe dissect what actually is going on what the best way to handle it is.

Cindy Moehring: 00:18:41

That's right. That's right. So that's fabulous. I love the fact that you talked about gray scenarios where, you know, and this is where the way real life works, right? It isn't just, oh, it's a or b, the options, there's always a flavor of gray and realizing there might not just be one straight path forward. But a couple of different ways and different approaches that you can take in order to raise the issue is, is interesting. But but a lot of companies stop it just the awareness as opposed to going into the house. So thanks for sharing with us, that you all actually take it to that next step and talk about the how which I think builds that muscle of speaking up for individuals, they you know, it's like learning to ride a bike. I mean, it's it's not always easy to think about, how do I raise my voice, especially if I'm Junior in an organization, you feel certain pressures, if you're a mid level manager, you feel certain pressures, because you got pressure from above and, you know, our responsibility to those below you. And if you're at the very top, you have different pressures yet. So are her approach I think also points out that the pressures apply at different different points along the journey, depending on where you are in an organization, but the tools in the framework work regardless of that. So thanks for sharing.

Jim Byrne: 00:19:54

Yeah, and one particular key measure if I can sort of, yeah, insert that, that we're particularly proud of In our company is the anonymous reporting rate continues to decline. Yes, that that, that there's no way to look at that other than that's healthy. That's right. They know and they trust our local ethics officers, and they trust the company. Remember, I talked about, you know, the trust and the leadership, trust in your peers and trust in the organization. And we encourage employees to seek guidance, in addition to the option of reporting misconduct and, and the majority of our contacts and ethics and business conduct organization are not necessarily reporting misconduct. It's questions. Questions about things like, well, you know, how should I handle this? Or what do you think about this? Right? What's the best approach to handle this situation? And it's, that's very been very healthy for our company.

Cindy Moehring: 00:20:49

Yeah, creating that kind of dialogue and partnership and collaboration, I think is what really sets companies apart when they're a role when they're able to do that. So there are a couple of main reasons though. We're despite Mary's wonderful approach and framework, one that I think keep people from speaking up. Research for years, including research has been put out by the ethics and compliance initiative, has shown that there's really two main reasons why employees don't speak up. And it's because of either one, they think that nothing's gonna be done about it anyway. So why Why worry about it, or two that they're going to be retaliated against? So can you share with us what maybe some best practices are that y'all have employed there at Lockheed Martin to try to overcome those hurdles for your employees?

Jim Byrne: 00:21:41

Well, I think I think you're right in our internal census surveys, which go back a few decades, cite the same perennial reasons for employees not reporting reporting. And it is hard to overcome sort of some preconceived notions about about retaliate retaliation. But some of the best practices that we've come up with our awareness and education are really important tools to overcome sort of lack of knowledge, about the awareness about the ethics process, like how it works, and the confidentiality, we drive that home, very, very hard to commitment to confidentiality. And so when I talk about knowledge of our ethics process, we publish a brochure about how the ethnic process works. It gives us sort of a sense of confidence about what's going to happen to them when they go through the process. So it takes that mass is going to work out what's going to happen. It's very, very straightforward and how we conduct ourselves. And also we have a reasonably effective anti retaliation program, right, retaliation, accepted, reported, we investigate it. But the ethics office takes an additional effort, the ethics officers will have a sort of a clock around a certain period of time, several months after recording parties matter has been closed out to make sure that they haven't been retaliated against we we reach out and contact these reporting parties. And that's, I think that's kind of unique. And it's been, it's been well received by by the reporting parties that we've contacted. With that follow up about, you know, how are you doing and things situated? Okay. Yeah, we're here to help if there's anything we do to help. Oh,

Cindy Moehring: 00:23:28

that's definitely a distinguishing feature, Jim, I yeah, I really think that is because, you know, there's formal retaliation like somebody can get fired or demoted. But then there's all kinds of informal retaliation, that that employees can feel I'm not invited to the same meetings. I, you know, I'm not asked to do the same kind of work I was asked to do before. So it can take many different flavors and forms. But checking back in, I think, gives them probably a lot of comfort to know that, that there is a resource and retaliation is treated as a separate claim, you know, by a lot of companies, if they believe they've been retaliated against, it's a separate claim. Okay, so another thing that has shown up in some research studies that I wanted to ask you about is pressure to compromise standards accompany standards, and the most recent Global Business Ethics Survey that was put out by ECI showed a dramatic uptick in that between like 2017 and 2020. Why do you think that is generally not I'm not asking you specifically about Lockheed Martin, and whether or not you even have seen that Elachi Martin, but why generally, do you think that has happened? And what do you think that Lockheed Martin and other companies can do post COVID to try to prevent that from continuing to come to the forefront of people's minds in a distributed work environment?

Jim Byrne: 00:24:52

Sure, sure. So we're we're fortunate that we have seen the percentage of employees who, who perceive pressure to compromise as ethical standards, it continues to decline. And we're fortunate, and we must be doing something right. But we're Yeah, we're also we have real quality employees and quality leaders, you know, the continued, like our anonymous reporting rate continues to drop. We still are, we're vigilant to remain unknown resource for the employees and leaders with concerns. And we're VBA concerns and resolve issues before they become bigger, bigger problems. And yeah, instill some confidence in the employees. That the company, the company cares.

Cindy Moehring: 00:25:36

Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. And, you know, I just wonder if a lot of it is when you are alone in a distributed work environment, and perhaps, you know, just sitting here, you have a lot of time to just be in your own head. And you may, so communication is so important. And you hit on that point before, but I want to hit on it, again, about the importance of over communicating and leaving time when you are talking with somebody in a distributed environment to ask let them ask questions or ask for clarification, because they may think they heard something in what you said, that wasn't at all what you what you actually said. But without that sort of, let me just go down the hall and ask him before I leave, or, you know, let me let me, let me just, you know, stop by his office real quick and ask him, you got to find another touch point in order to do that, to clarify any misperceptions? There may be. And I think a lot of it is that now we all know that COVID There were some tough times, right? Obviously, you had businesses that weren't able to make it, and that I'm sure that there was a lot of pressure. But great to see that at Lockheed Martin, that you were going in the opposite direction against that particular trend. So alright, let me ask you another question. We've talked a lot about you and your role as kind of leading the ethics office in the Business Conduct Office and helping to set that tone for the company, but whose job really is it in a company to ensure a strong speak up culture exists?

Jim Byrne: 00:27:02

I would suggest it's everyone's job. Right? There's, there's there's a little bit of a misperception maybe not, I'm exaggerating a little bit, that the small team of ethics officers in our company or our any other company own the company's ethical culture. The ethics officers are teachers, they're their advocates. And the truth is, is is everyone who is part of an organization either contributes to or erodes the culture by their words. Indeed, right. That's not a profound statement. But But spot on. There is a good deal of self policing that goes on and peer pressure that I've seen at all different levels to do what's right. And leaders reinforced that culture by modeling personal integrity, and being present and being there, albeit maybe even virtually for their teams. And so when an employee contacts, the ethics office, we start really by thanking them for having the courage and integrity to seek guidance for report misconduct. And yes, that's been I think, what's what's helped us ensure a strong ethical culture, among other things.

Cindy Moehring: 00:28:09

Yeah, yeah, I have to agree with you. I do think everybody owns it. But I do think oftentimes, in large companies in particular, there, there are some who think that it's the legal department, or it's the ethics department are, you know, it's those folks over there that own it, and shifting that mindset to it's the frontline business leaders? Ownership, right. They, they own it, we all own it. I mean, our organizations like yours within the company helps to support it and maintain it and runs the processes and has the frameworks but you can't own the culture for the company. It really has to be owned by everyone. I would agree with you on that one. For sure. You bet. All right, Jim, this has been fabulous. Thank you for sharing so much with us about speaking up cultures using Mary's approach, kind of the similarities and differences that you've seen in cultures across your varied experiences. And with all that said, is there one last piece of advice that you would have for, let's say, business students and speaking up when they do enter the business world?

Jim Byrne: 00:29:16

Sure, I do. And I know I've tooted the horn pretty loud about Lockheed Martin Corporation, but I'm gonna do it again a little bit. There are not many organizations like Lockheed Martin Corporation that walk the walk about ethics and speaking up with concerns, some talk to talk about it, but in many cases, they will crush their employees who speak up and do the right thing that that's reality. And I feel like I owe that to the business students to tell them that that it's not all peaches and roses. Right? Right. Right. But I would say this is this is the advice if a strong ethical culture matters to you. And I strongly suggest that it should, yes, I would strongly encourage you to make this part Have your research and your counter interviewing as you enter the job market.

Cindy Moehring: 00:30:05

Totally agree that's a great piece of advice. It's not just about the money and how much they're gonna pay you. It's about the culture of the company and the organization that you're joining. And are you going to feel comfortable there? That's great. Exactly. All right, one last fun question. On one, if you think about just sort of mainstream media, because you can learn a lot of lessons from that. And it's also gonna be very fun. Are there any like good books or podcasts or shows or documentaries, anything that you think kind of highlight this issue of voicing your values or failing to, that you could recommend to the audience?

Jim Byrne: 00:30:46

You know, there is one voice is this isn't a spot on. But it's a book that I've been promoting to friends, colleagues, and it's, it's called On War and Politics. And it's written by a friend and mentor of mine. retired Marine Corps General, honorable Arnold Punaro. It's called On War and Politics. And it's essentially a book about how to navigate the culture of Washington DC, specifically, he had extensive experience in DOD, where he obviously is a Marine Corps General, had a lot of experience. And I read it after my last stint in the federal government. And I wish I would have read it before. Oh, my

Cindy Moehring: 00:31:29

goodness, how interesting on Warren politics. All right. That's a new one. Nobody has recommended that one yet. So we will definitely add that to the list. Jim, this has been great. Thank you for being so gracious with your time and for sharing your your wisdom and your your advice and everything with our audience. Really, really appreciate it.

Jim Byrne: 00:31:49

Certainly, certainly. I look forward to doing it again. Maybe. All right,