Amber Williams Discusses Integrity and Harnessing Your Power to be Heard in the Workplace Season 6 Episode 3

Cindy Moehring: 00:00:01

Hi, everyone. I'm Cindy Moehring, the founder and Executive Chair of the business integrity Leadership Initiative at the Walton College of Business, and this is the business integrity school podcast. Here we talk about applying ethics, integrity and courageous leadership in business, and most importantly, in your life today, I've had nearly 30 years of real world experience as a senior executive. So if you're looking for practical tips from a business pro who's been there, then this is the podcast for you. Welcome. Let's get started. Hi, everybody, and welcome back for another episode of the business integrity school. As you know, we're in season six, and we're talking about all things related to speaking up and creating, speak up culture within companies and how to do that. And today we have with us a very special guest who's had to do that, more than one company. I'm really excited to introduce to you today Amber Williams. Hey, Amber. Hello, good to see you. Good. Well, I'm really glad to see you. It's wonderful to reconnect and have this conversation. So Amber and I actually worked together at Walmart for many years where she had a very storied career in the legal department. And after that, she became a VP at Elle brands. And then l brands moved into kind of separating itself into a couple of different companies. And now she's the deputy general counsel, and SVP at Bath and Bodyworks. So you've really seen a lot. Amber, I would say, in your career that a number of very well known companies, but can you just start by telling the audience a little bit about yourself, and kind of how you found yourself in these positions with these great companies?

Amber Williams: 00:01:44

Well, sure, I, I graduated from law school, when there really was no sort of VP of ethics and compliance or ethics and compliance functions really outside of regulated industries, right. So it certainly was not my aspiration or goal, to do this kind of work. But certainly feel like my path aligned with my purpose, through a lot of good luck and good circumstances. I started out in house, I've been in house my entire career as an attorney at small companies, first startup, and then private equity owned, and after and during the.com, boom and bust era. And it was in Houston, when Enron occurred. Certainly kind of came up as a baby lawyer at the time that sort of the modern corporate ethics Foundation was being built under Sarbanes Oxley, and was in house in Houston, and certainly well aware of all of the news surrounding that. And my first sort of experience with internal investigations was with a company in Houston. And then I went to Walmart, really to I wanted to work at a at a big company, and started out in the real estate legal department. But I did some compliance related work in the real estate function, Walmart was centralizing more of its compliance functions, I had an opportunity to move in a legal role supporting compliance directly. That was the beginning of my love of compliance work and understanding of how broad and interesting it can be. And one of the things that I just really enjoy about this kind of work is that you're trying to solve problems and help a company be successful and profitable, really, in complying with regulations, and often had not even contemplated what the business does, how it operates. Right. So it's a it's a fun sort of puzzle to always be working on. And really, for me feeling like I'm adding value to the business, doing things that I think are interesting, yeah, me as well as a lawyer. And so that path into compliance at Walmart, which then led me into a role where I was doing investigations. And when I first started working with you, a supporting some of the ethics work, and then I went back to real estate, but then it was able to get back into leading the US compliance legal function at Walmart. It was the work that I did at Walmart, frankly, that made me a an a candidate for a job at L brands, leading ethics and compliance. And so I was fortunate to get that opportunity was a difficult decision to change after being at Walmart for almost 12 years. But it was also an opportunity to, to lead a function that I that I felt was was an appropriate change for me to make and say, I've been here for four years. And really, I'm in this same kind of role. But the name of the company has changed. And the context of the company has changed. Yeah, but but pretty much have been been here. So I've been through a lot of change. And I think it's also interesting to sit in these roles as organizations change as the world changes. COVID You know, the economic sort of disruption to social unrest that's also impacted. It impacts how people show up at work as well. So all of those things have been part of, you know, my development and learning in this role. So it's been interesting and fascinating. And for me, it's always new and fresh, because there's always new challenges associated with with change. Yeah. And growth. So that's why it came to be here. Yeah, when

Cindy Moehring: 00:05:21

you joined all brands at at a time now, with the benefit of 2020, hindsight, was on the verge of facing some of its own really big challenges in this space of sort of ethics and compliance. And, you know, thinking about integrity. And so you've really had a chance to see a number of different companies kind of work through that, and how do you build cultures? And how do you do that in an effective way, so that everyone can show up at work, and bring their whole selves to work, and feel comfortable speaking up, right, when they do see something that doesn't seem to be kind of quite right. But before we go on, and talk about that, you mentioned that you were in Houston, when Enron happened, and this semester being all about speaking up, we're all we also have the opportunity, I've I've had the opportunity to interview Sharon Watkins, who was the whistleblower from Enron for a podcast episode, she's also going to be speaking to campus. So we're very excited about that. But from your perspective, just take a slight little detour on this question. What was it like to be in Houston when that erupted? You know, it

Amber Williams: 00:06:31

was really fascinating, because, you know, Enron was the company that everybody admired, and that people wanted to work for. And at, and I remember, as a young lawyer, I worked at a startup and one of our investors in a startup was in Enron subsidiary. And I remember going to the building a couple of times for some meetings, and, and just being excited to be in the space and feeling energized, and sort of in awe at what Enron was and represented. So to see it come crashing down really, really quickly, very dramatically. And to know, I personally knew people who were impacted by that I, you know, it really made me think differently about, you know, work and corporations. And, you know, I think that we can be really enamored with profile. And, and I think there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But when you go join an organization, you don't always know exactly what you're signing up for, but to understand, like, the role that each of us plays individually, to contributing to the integrity of an organization, and that how we use our voice, how we show up, as part of, you know, it, it becomes infectious in many ways and can be positive. But also, if you see things and you don't speak up, sometimes that can be detrimental. And if you see things and you do speak up, sometimes that doesn't, you know, necessarily play out the way that you would, you would like, ya know, that's, you know, I think that's all part of the story. But to me, it's part of the learning. And so this work, I can look, I can look back at that very differently than I certainly was experiencing it. As a young professional in Houston, where it was really I was confused, right? It was really confusing to me. That that's something so big, so appearing so stable and so profitable. could kind of evaporate. Yeah. So much pain, in turmoil in its wake. Yeah, that's huge ramifications. For the country for the law. For employers.

Cindy Moehring: 00:08:37

Yes, huge increase in for individuals. I think it's a good especially young, like you were, you know, sort of enamored with the awe of being in the presence of this, you know, world's seventh largest company at the time, right. But to realize that things aren't always what they seem. So be careful, don't assume, right, ask questions, remain curious. Make sure that there's concert data to support what you're what you're seeing. And all that kind of comes back to culture. Sometimes you don't know necessarily until you get no, you can try to ask all the right questions, and you try to figure things out as best as you can. And then you kind of really have to remain curious when you get into a company to understand the culture fully and make sure that it is what you what you think that what it is and that it aligns with your own right kind of values and purpose and reason. So you've now been at some small companies you've talked about and then you jumped all the way up to Walmart and then off to Elle brands and now Bath and Body Works. So when you step back and just think about culture, corporate cultures, for companies and no company is perfect that you know, we've all kind of had issues every company does along the way. What do you think are some of the similarities that you've seen within companies when it comes to core Corporate culture and trying to create a speak up culture, what are some similarities? And then we'll talk about differences that you've seen.

Amber Williams: 00:10:06

Yeah, I mean, I think the similarities are just about how much Tone at the Top drives, you know, the culture and, and how important leadership is right. And so, regardless of the culture, it's shaped by that, but I also, I think about how similar it is that what is happening in the world influences the culture inside of a company, right? Yeah, not insulated from what is happening in the world, because companies are made up of people, right. And so every individual is bringing their perspectives, their experiences, their desires, and goals and aspirations to work. And so really, what culture is, is a combination of sort of the internal ethos of an organization, plus, you know, sort of the consolidated experiences of of people and how they show up and what's important to them. Because what drives and changes culture, often is the individuals within the organization who are speaking up or who are asking for something different than maybe what the organization has offered historically. And some of that can be around, you know, gender diversity, racial diversity, inclusivity around all manner of things. I mean, when I started my career, it was not common for companies to have associate resource groups, employee resource groups, right. But now that is an expectation, particularly of our larger organizations. And so I think what is really the most common theme is that culture evolves, is is not stagnant. What you walk into may not be, you know, what you end up with, and some of that is not controlled by the company itself, right. And so leadership tone at the top, all of that is important tone at the middle, we know is incredibly important. But also there are some grassroots types of events that happen in companies that can shift and shape culture.

Cindy Moehring: 00:11:58

Yeah, and strengthen it, influence it, you know, improve it for the future. But you know, one of the differences that I've seen pop up is a well, I should say, arises out of now, this expectation, I would say that employees have have their leaders to weigh in on these social issues one way or another, I mean, Disney, we've seen, they got caught right smack dab in the middle of, you know, trying to figure out what to say, to say something or to not say something. And, you know, without without going into the whole Disney story about what they did there is this sense these days that employees are expecting their their leaders to take a stand on social issues, to some extent, and a difference, I would say is how leaders are choosing to do that. Have you? Have you seen that at all? And how do you think that is affecting corporate corporate culture?

Amber Williams: 00:13:03

You know, it's interesting, and I think when you're, you know, when you're a part of an organization, you can see multiple sides of that, right, which is, you know, I think companies should, you know, be true to who they are and what they do. Right. So everything is not for every organization to take a position on in public. But if it's a lot if it is important, because it really ties to who you are, as an organization, and the kinds of things that you talk about, and the things that you've committed to, then I think you do, I think it's a challenging place to be in that there are always going to be those who are in favor of what positions or what is said or not said. And I mean, I don't know that there's always right and wrong there. I think that there are choices to be made. In there always sort of risks and benefits associated with whatever choice is made. And I don't I mean, I don't have an opinion on what the answer should be. I do think, you know, dances dictate the organization matters, who they are, what they do, and your employee base matters. Right. So I think there's a lot of different factors that play into that. But it is different because there certainly was a time where nobody would have ever expected, right, a corporation, right of any size to take a position on anything really club if it wasn't directly related to the core, you know, business that the company operates. Right. Yeah, that is a huge difference.

Cindy Moehring: 00:14:35

It is. And I think it's sort of this blending of different segments of societies. If you have society, I should say, if you will, to address some of these larger issues that are facing the world. I think it's also a matter of empowerment, you know, from the employees in terms of, it's also

Amber Williams: 00:14:53

a voice in so many ways for the public, your class. to immerse your stakeholders, your investors to be heard, right? We've got social media has just completely changed the landscape in terms of providing broader platforms, right? For, for organizations to have to absorb what some of the perceptions might be about them. And so it changes the profile and the risk profile from a reputational standpoint, in a way that didn't exist, you know, 20 years ago.

Cindy Moehring: 00:15:24

Yeah. So one of the things though, that I think rings true, and you you mentioned, this, too, is if a company can only start with what are our values? What is our purpose? What is our culture and use that as the touchstone to then figure out, okay, what, if anything, is the right thing for us to do or say, on this particular issue, you will probably find their way, but not if it doesn't start with a strong core right of values and purpose and who they are. And core to all of that, for a company that wants to have a strong culture is going to be maintaining that speak up culture, you know, allowing people to even put the issues on the table that you know, need to at least have an audience for somebody to hear what the concerns are, and to listen and if necessary to investigate it. So what have you learned? By being at all of the companies you've been at so far? Amber's about how to build a good, strong speak up culture?

Amber Williams: 00:16:30

You know, I'm still learning, right? Because I think that it is, it is hard to speak up. And I think probably what I've learned the most is that it's never you can't really ever make it easy. You can provide channels. Now it easy to communicate, but people have to make an individual choice to speak up. And that's the part that I think, is the hardest to tap into that how do you instill safety? That helps people to tap into their courage? Because you cannot make people speak up? No, no. And there are lots of reasons that people don't speak up. A lot of them have nothing to do with the organization, some of it has to do with how we were raised, right, something that we're bringing into the workplace that might make us reluctant to raise our hand and speak right. And some of it may just be disposition and personality, if a person is more introverted, they may just be less likely to speak up. So I think it's really trying to figure out what are the different ways that you can pay attention to how people show up and what they bring in terms of disposition, personality, their own personal culture, to make it easier for them to speak up in various ways. And sometimes that is through another person who might be more courageous, right? And so how do we say to all of that, like, all of that is a good way of driving a speak up culture? Like it's all not formal? Sometimes it's informal, but how do you then create a path for that informal sort of speaking up to turn into something that the company can then become a form informed about and act upon? So I think figuring out like, where do you tap into groups, teams, you know, whether they are the affinity groups, within organizations, like, I think it's what I've learned is that you cannot, you can't just have your formal program, right, and publicize that, and train people and think that that's gonna get, it's all

Cindy Moehring: 00:18:38

just gonna be right, there was a recent report that just came out about the importance of psychological safety within organizations to help create this sense that you can speak up. But the the interesting finding there is that the further up you rise in an organization, your sense of safety within the organization increases. And therefore you can leaders can end up with almost a, you know, rose colored glasses or blinders on to the way the rest of the organization may be feeling. Because they feel safe. So if they're the leader of the organization, or near the top and they feel safe, well, then surely everybody feels safe because I do, right. So this recognition that there isn't a difference in psychological safety and how someone feels as they move up in an organization, I think is a pretty important finding because it hits on what you just said, it's like, you really have to push against that as a leader, I think to make sure you stay in touch lots of different ways to do that. But you know, going down in the organization through the resource groups that you mentioned, you know, skip level meetings, having just like pop in on meetings from time to time so people see you and see that you're accessible and that you care and that you want to know that alone can can sometimes break through that. Oh my God, I don't I Don't know how to talk to a senior leader about something. So yeah, those are really, really important points. So all that then comes back to I think I'd like your opinion on whose job do you think it is to maintain a strong SpeakUp culture and a company

Amber Williams: 00:20:14

everybody's? Yeah, I think everybody's I certainly people who are leaders of people have direct supervisory roles, I think, a greater impetus, yeah. And burden on folks who are leading teams to drive that down. But it is everybody I mean, the idea that any one department function person could be the sole sort of carrier of providing psychological safety to an entire organization. So that people will speak up, it's, it's not really realistic, or feasible. And so I think, you know, figuring out how to you even communicate that all of us own responsibility for creating the culture, maintaining culture, improving the culture without and it doesn't have to be critical, right? Like saying that we want to be better doesn't mean that we're bad. Right? But it's certainly ethics and compliance work is continuous improvement, which means we have to stay curious to things that may not occur to us. And so when you talk about sometimes there are some blind spots about people in different positions, not necessarily recognizing anxiety, fear, reluctance, associated with speaking up, some of that is just about being curious about what can I do to make sure we are reaching everybody? Yeah, the language that we use in our communications, but to your point, also, where do you show up in in be visible? And then how can you show up in ways that are not always formal? that make it easier? And then how can you make sure that you're communicating that you that you want to deputize the entire organization to also be part of receiving information? But I think also part of it is like, how do you get folks to ask the next question? Yeah, sometimes what happens is somebody may say something, that may give you an indication that they really want to tell you something. And they decide whether or not to take the next step to actually disclose based on how you react, you know, this kind of thing happened yesterday. And it made me a little uncomfortable, like, Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. So what are you focused on today? Well, that's the end of that, right? Versus will tell me a little bit more about that. Right. Like, it's just some of it, it's very small signals that we can send, that can change whether people really believe that it's safe to share things that they're afraid to share, right.

Cindy Moehring: 00:22:53

Yeah, that is a key point that sort of active listening, to pick up on the signals. And the other thing that I that I'll add to that is, those comments are typically made in about the last two to three minutes of a meeting,

Amber Williams: 00:23:09

when you're trying to wrap up.

Cindy Moehring: 00:23:12

So leaders really need to dial in on that allow a little extra time at the end of meetings. And I understand that that is typically the time that somebody is finally going to say what maybe weighing on their on their heart. And so the the because of time pressure, the immediate reaction may be Oh, I'm really sorry about that. What are you focused on today, because they're focused on I gotta get to my next meeting, without realizing that that may be the most important part of the meeting is the fact that that person just said that, and allowing the time to follow up on it couldn't be any more important. So it's a matter of kind of recognizing that as well. Right?

Amber Williams: 00:23:49

Yeah. And how do we how do we sensitize folks to that, right, because there's always so much to do. I know. And it's very, very important, and how can we make sure that we're also valuing the space for the grade that we're not anticipating, right? Yeah. And so for people who do the kind of work that we do, we understand that our days can be disrupted at any time. And typically, our may shift in your calendar may be derailed. But in certain parts of the company, there may be roles where that's not really how it works. And so it's really uncomfortable to figure out like, so now I have to shift for this. And then how do organizations make sure we are creating incentives for that to be okay, yeah, right. Right. So if you get behind on something, because of something that someone raises, that you then realize that you need to address like that doesn't become something that gets penalized,

Cindy Moehring: 00:24:43

right? That's exactly right. Yeah. So Amber, another topic that I wanted to touch on with you, is related to bias in the workplace and how do you speak up if you actually see that and Interestingly, two things, one, you've you've written an article about that and Harvard Business Review, that I think was fabulous. And so well, I want to talk about that. But to set the stage for that, it's also really interesting that the ethics and compliance initiative found in their most recent Global Business Ethics Survey, that favoritism was actually one of the main types of misconduct that individuals observe within a company. And, you know, there can be a lot behind that particular statement. And a lot of, I think, iterations and we all know, we are individuals, and we come to work with sometimes you know, our own perceptions of the world, which can make it look like favoritism to others, but maybe it's not. But then there are situations where it's pretty clear. And you can tell that there's favoritism here happening at work in who the boss may continue to go to to get work done, or, you know, whatever, whatever it may be, who they say, Hey, let's go grab a cup of coffee with and you know, it starts to become a pattern sometimes. So this is I think that that's can be really detrimental to a speak up culture, which is one of the things that you addressed in this incredible Harvard Business Review article that you wrote a few years ago back in 2017. And what I liked about it is that you provided some tips in the article for individuals about why starting with why they should speak up if they see by us at work. So if you don't mind, tell us a little bit about what what prompted you with the idea to write that article. And then you can go into some of those tips, because I think it was, it was a great time to do it.

Amber Williams: 00:26:45

Thank you, Cindy, I appreciate that. I, what prompted me was frankly, I was invited to weigh in on someone else who was asked to write an article and thought it would be helpful to have a perspective from a woman of color. And so that's why I was even invited to weigh in. And I saw a unique opportunity to use my voice. And to share my perspective that might be helpful, because I do think that there are different elements of who we are, that makes in some cases make it may make it more difficult to speak up. And you know, bias is a is loaded, right. So when you ever raise anything where you assert allege that there may be an element of bias that immediately charges, the entire conversation, right, and so, but I think we need to be honest about that. Right? And so you can't even address how do you help people speak up? If they're concerned not only about the thing they're speaking up about, but they also are concerned that there's another element to them. Not that it's just there may be favoritism, but then there's favoritism against people who don't look like me. Correct, right, or who don't share my sexual orientation, right. Like all of those things are that it's another sort of layer. And it also means that I have to talk about that about myself. And maybe that's not something I like to lead with. Right. And so I think all of those things. I think we're, we're comfortable today for sure. In 2022, having open conversations about the role of bias. Yeah, knowledge being that difference makes a difference in the workplace, right, than we were in 2017, in large part based on events that have 2020. Yeah. But but it's not new. Right. It's just that now it's maybe more likely to be able to be open acknowledged, but I thought it was, it was really important to put it on the table that it is hard. And there are costs, and there are risks associated with speaking up. And but if you don't do it, the costs are, I think, for you personally, right, like you, what, are you losing yourself? By not standing up for yourself? What is your organization lose by not understanding that it may have a problem that it needs to address? Right? And if everybody because in sometimes we think somebody else will speak up, because right, nobody else sees what's happening. But if everybody takes the position, that is somebody else will do it, and nobody does it. Right? Right. And your organization never gets better.

Cindy Moehring: 00:29:20

That's right. That's right. That's right. Cuz everybody's looking for somebody else to finally do it. And And if nobody does, that, there's a bit of the groupthink where it just doesn't happen. Yeah.

Amber Williams: 00:29:30

And then enlist somebody, sometimes there's somebody has to be first. And we've got so many fantastic examples of history of folks that are sort of, you know, they, at least from what we see, right, like they're the well publicized, they're always usually some quiet or things that don't make the news, right. Yeah. But that somebody has to do that. And I think sometimes questioning asking ourselves like why can't it be us? It's sort of a what are the costs? I think there are personal costs, and I think there are organizational costs to staying I went and sucking it up. Yeah, that that make you less productive at work, because you're distracted by the thing you're not addressing, which impacts the company. And I mean, I truly believe in a lot of situations, people are not aware of their biases, they are not aware of perceptions that others might have. And so I think starting the conversation, but giving people actionable tips and advice, and for me, some of that probably is just a reflection of advice I've been given throughout my career and things I've tried. Right. And so you know, I don't know that when I sit, talk to somebody else that I think that's just what we're usually inclined to do is find somebody we trust, and I say, I think this is happening. What do you think, do you am I boy, is it out of proportion? Is this do you think I should do something about it? If I need to talk to somebody about it? Like, who would I talk to? How might I have that conversation? Like, yeah, some of those things are natural things for us to do. But to be intentional about it related to things that matter? In terms of what might be misconduct, right, inappropriate behavior, or just cultural behaviors that undermine the company's values, right?

Cindy Moehring: 00:31:13

Yeah, yeah. I also like some of your other tips about, in addition to asking questions, right of others, which is very, very helpful. But you know, keeping a cool head about it, creating the opportunity for dialogue, like what you said, some, some, not everyone is aware of their biases, right. And so creating an opportunity for dialogue about it can have a number of great outcomes, you can help the individual become more aware others, if you're doing it, doing it in a in a setting where others are around will see oh, so So this behavior isn't just acceptable. And here's somebody who's willing to address it that empowers others to feel comfortable doing the same, right. And if you don't do that, then it kind of creates the impression that the behavior is acceptable, and then things just will continue down, down that path. And pretty soon a culture can veer off in the wrong direction. And you haven't helped the individual become aware of their biases, and part of you has not been true to who you are in terms of being able to speak up. So there was a lot in that article to unpack. And I'm really glad that you wrote it.

Amber Williams: 00:32:19

Well, thank you. I do think the I think we undervalue the importance of disrupting things, using our voice, right? Like, you may not get an immediate resolution that is in line with what you would want. But just raising the issue, often is enough for someone to take a pause, or to have a conversation with someone to say like, I'm not sure if you're aware, without even saying that I think the person's doing it. But there is a perception, right of this thing, which sometimes is a spark, that, you know, that drives change may or may not always be as quick as, as everyone would want. But there is power in disruption through voice. And, and, and I think there's a quote that I that I love that says the most common way people give up power is by believing they don't have any. And so I think about that all the time, that we often seek power that we didn't know we had, by being quiet, when we when we are able and have the opportunity to use our voices. And sometimes that's not an invitation. You have to you know, proactively create the opportunity for yourself to be heard. But that is a power we all have. And I you know, I think part of my purpose is to make sure people understand that so that they can they can raise concerns, and certainly within the role that I have. I want we want the company cannot address things it doesn't know about.

Cindy Moehring: 00:33:40

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that is a fabulous piece of advice to end with. I'm glad you ended that I didn't even have to ask the question. Like, what advice would you throw it out there? And that is very, very powerful. I love that advice. That's great. Well, Amber, this has been fabulous, really great conversation. And I just appreciate you sharing your time with us today and your thoughts and in your wisdom. It's been great. Thank you.

Amber Williams: 00:34:05

Thank you so much for the opportunity. It's been a great pleasure for me as well. Great.